From Policy to Practice: Advancing Labour Rights Through Tripartism: An Interview with Mr Oktavianto Pasaribu, Deputy Director of the ILO in Southeast Asia

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*The transcript has been edited for readability and clarity by Gus Acuna & Declan Browne.

*Square brackets [ ] have been used for added readability.

Hosted by Samuel Lee, Peerajit Phasitthanaphak, and Viandito Pasaribu.

Special thanks to Mr Oktavianto Pasaribu.

''Mr. Oktavianto Pasaribu, Deputy Director of the ILO, Southeast Asia'

Samuel Lee:

Would you like to introduce yourself to our audience?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah, sure. So Oktavianto Pasaribu, I am the deputy director of the ILO [International Labour Organization] Country Office covering Cambodia. Now People's Democratic Republic [Laos] and in Thailand. And I'm also a deputy director heading our Technical Support team to deliver the ILO agenda in East and Southeast Asia. And [the] South Pacific, over.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Right. Moving on from that, could you give us an idea of your career path to reach for ILO? Over.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Very interesting question. It may take us a while to discuss this, but. Let me try to put it shortly. So basically. Like you all. I completed my study on International Relations when I did my undergraduate in Indonesia. It was with the University of Indonesia. I got the opportunity to work for the ASEAN secretariat. I. I don't [know] if you're familiar with ASEAN, this association of Southeast Asian nations.

The secretariat is in Jakarta, so after I completed my undergraduate I worked there for about maybe two years. In the Economic Research Bureau and then I got the opportunity to get the Australian scholarship from the Government of Australia. I did my masters in International Relations at the Australian National University. And perhaps I don't know about you guys, but. When I completed my master's program, I was not quite sure exactly what type of job I wanted, but for sure I wanted to be in. Working in for multilateral organizations, whatever it might be. And so I just sent invitations to all these different organizations, and one of them landed at the International Labor Organization. I was called on for an interview. I learned more about the organization I was interested in the mandate of that organization and voila, I started working for the ILO. I've been in this organization for the last 27 years. So you can tell my age, I think. From that. And. I have enjoyed my work thus far and I think it really is in line with my personal objective of working in multilateral organizations, particularly in development agenda. Thank you.

Viandito Pasaribu:

We'd also like to ask you about the responsibilities that you hold as Deputy director and what the scope of your job is.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yes, let me just put it simply. Basically, as a deputy, I'm supposed to provide overall administrative support for the function of the office. So this ranges from looking after staffing recruitment, [and] resource allocation. Ensuring that our technical work is delivered on time and finally. Providing report back to our masters as to what we have already achieved with the resources that we receive. So that's just to put it simply.

Samuel Lee:

I see. What would you say? Are like the perks of working at the ILO. Like what? What do you think? Are like some really great things about it.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

So unlike other UN organizations, the ILO is the only international organization that has membership from government, from employers, organizations and from workers organizations. And that is why we are proud in calling ourselves tripartite organizations. And this is very important because as you probably are aware and eventually you will also see it. When you go into the labour market, that anything too [associated] with [the] labour market cannot be done without these three players, right? The government sets the policy, the workers are the one delivering the work and the employers have to find resources to make sure that productivity is achieved so that's why it's a very important international organization and that's why I'm actually very pleased that this is a unique organization at a global level.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Moving back to something a bit more personal, you seem to be fluent in three languages, Indonesian, English and French. We were just wondering how does being multilingual help you? Sort of help you navigate such a international environment such as the ILO.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Well. I think. It is, well, the three languages, English, Spanish and French are the working languages of UN organizations. So if you can speak any of these languages and if you can speak more than one, it will actually help you advance in your career because you can get the opportunity of being assigned to, you know, Spanish-speaking countries of Latin America. Or to some French-speaking countries in Africa and Europe. So the more you can speak, the three working languages, the faster opportunity for you to move up the ladder. But it is also important for you to, you know, still maintain your mother tongue. Because at the end of the day, you are more or less shaped by the way your mother teaches you in your mother tongue, right? So, the whole point is I think the more you speak the languages, the better.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

And just going on from that, if you a lot of people may realize this, but in sort of in the international stage you have a lot of interpreters and growing technologies in translation, building on from that, that answer you just gave, do you do you have any?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yes.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Sort of. Opinions on sort of what the benefits of learning of language by yourself and sort of not relying so much on. These new translation technologies, such as AI. Interpreters and Google Translate so on. What's what? What are the sort of benefits of knowing the language personally and so relying on these other sources?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah, I cannot agree more with that. Sorry, what's your name again?

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

You can call me Mao.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Oh. Oh, Mao. OK, so I I cannot agree more. I think as you probably are also aware, mastering language helps you also in terms of brain function right? So the more languages you speak, the more likelihood that you will actually live longer and have a stable mental health because the brain. You know, sets how you deal with your mental issues so, of course, technology helps in that regard. But, if you acquire languages out of your own vocation then, I think I would. I would really support that and I have lived with that own experience myself. Because then you know, you also feel stronger opportunity to converse with people of different culture, different languages, because languages help you understand the values of people you work with.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

I see. I see. Then it must. It must help you a lot in some these sort of international interactions, doesn't it?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

No, definitely yes, because then you don't need somebody to interpret what others say to you, right? So you actually master exactly what your counterparts speak, and that's why I must

say that you know, I raise my hat for all these interpreters who have been working with the ILO over the years. Whenever we have international conferences, right? Because you must have interpreters of the three working languages and in some big events, even all the six UN languages, and these people speak all the six languages easily. For me, the fact that I can speak, you know, French and English, it's already, I find it already very challenging and difficult. And these interpreters they speak fluently on all these 6 languages so kudos to them. So I think just in terms of perspective, since you know you have your future ahead of you, you know being interpreter is something that might be of interest to you. If that is something that is in your horizon going forward.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Perhaps, perhaps.

Viandito Pasaribu:

We would also like to ask you what your motivations were in pursuing a career with the UN or the ILO specifically.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Oh, like I said before. You know, I think since I was in high school, you know, I always wanted to work in [an] international environment and I was always keen to learn about. The way people outside Indonesia, well, you know, I am Indonesian, right? So when I was in high school, I always wanted to see, you know, and live in countries outside Indonesia, because I think it would enrich my life. Which explained why when I had to choose my undergraduate program, I went for International Relations for that very reason. And I continued doing that for my master's program because I think the opportunity of understanding how different countries in the world interact with one another politically, economically, [and] now even environmentally is supposed to help promote, you know, better understanding among different cultures and that's why, you know, it motivated me to to work in international organizations such as the ILO.

Samuel Lee:

You've had quite a, you know, storied career so far and you've been involved in quite a few projects, you know, in far-flung parts of the world. What are some of the most interesting missions you've undertaken then in your time at the ILO?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Well, let me cite two examples. One was when I went on [a] mission to Tuvalu, which is a tiny country in [the] South Pacific. It took me about what? Maybe 36 hours to reach the country. When I went there for my first mission, there were only two flights a week and if you miss one of the flights, you have to stay in the country for another week. Before you can get out of the country.

Samuel Lee:

Oh my gosh.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

And this was, I think it was in the ninth already in year 2000s. So that and I found it very unique, right because you perhaps. Without my job, I would not even think of this country to visit, right? But, having been there, I experienced how difficult life can be if you live in an atoll in the middle of [the] South Pacific, where you can easily get hit by typhoons almost a few times a year and because you live in [it] all, right?

So the sea water also seeps up from under your feet. So when I was there, I could, you know, see how my feet were always wet every so often. Within a day, especially during high tide, but that makes you appreciate how people living in a remote island such as Tuvalu need support for improving their well-being and often you don't always think about climate change until you actually see the impact on [a] small population in the Pacific. So that's that's one interesting experience and the country was made-up of very few atolls, and the biggest one, which was where the capital Funafuti [is located], you can reach one corner of the island to another within 25 minutes of walking. That's how small it is, and you can imagine the impact of climate change to such a small island. The other interesting mission that I would share here with you all was when I went on mission to Yemen. And probably for you, you know the country is in fact divided into northern and southern parts. It has been in [a] civil war for the last, I don't know, a decade maybe. And yet we the UN, were supposed to provide development assistance right to people in Yemen affected by civil war. And it was not very easy to deliver, you know, the development agenda because the very fact your own movement was confined just to go from one side of the city to another, and you have to go through so many checkpoints made it very difficult for us to do our job. But then if you think of the population you were supporting, right, you can. You cannot appreciate how hard their life was and it made me, you know, motivated to keep doing so despite the difficulties of working in countries under conflict. Such as the amount.

Samuel Lee:

Because that's that sounds scary.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah, that. Yeah, but, but that's the thing that you need to do if you work in [an] organization like like the UN, right? Especially if you want to pursue career in humanitarian agencies. That's what you have to do every day, which is why I think our policies that if you are based or if you work in countries which we call "high intensity of hardship" you get to get out of the country every I think 2 months and then stay in, ok, let me put it as a stable country so that you can deal with your stress and mental issues of having to see you know how war affected people and now it's repeated again in Gaza, as you probably are aware.

Samuel Lee:

Still, we, you know, because of your time in Yemen. Did you have to regularly take like you know that time off to sort of recuperate then? Or was this like in for more dire circumstances?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Well. Yeah, I was kind of lucky because when I was assigned in the Middle East, I was actually based in Beirut, Lebanon. But every so often I had to take [a] mission to Yemen because Yemen is one of the countries covered by my office. But just to see how difficult it was to reach Yemen, first you have to fly all the way to, what is this Djibouti? From Lebanon. So you go all the way South and then from Djibouti you have to fly again to Aden because you cannot go to Sanaa, which is controlled by the Houthi regime, which is not internationally recognized. And as AUN, we cannot go straight to Sanaa. So we have to go via Aden and then from Aden, you have to either go by UN convoy or flight again and sometimes. Umm. Because. The problem with Yemen was that it's also under bombardment by [the] Saudis right? So you wonder sometimes when you are flying from one capital to another. You cannot stop thinking, oh, what might happen if the Saudi[s] decided to send [a] bomb while you were flying to one of these cities, right? Despite the assurance by the UN Security colleagues that you know, whenever UN flights were [in the] air, there would not be any bombardment, but the incidents in Ukraine made you realize that anything can happen, so that is the risk that, you know, humanitarian workers have to do every day. And I considered myself lucky because I was based in Beirut so I could get out of Yemen after my mission. But those who are based in Yemen, they cannot get out of the country, you know, anytime they want, they have to stay there at least two months because they are humanitarian workers. So there you go.

Samuel Lee:

God, that that must be terrifying. Yeah.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yes indeed. But on the other hand, that makes you also realize that if your heart is in development, you are working on, you know, peace and development, type of jobs that actually makes you motivated because you can really see how the population affected by war appreciates any kind of support you can provide and I must say that I'm very proud of the ILO in that sense, because the project we have in Yemen is to support [the] empowerment of women. And you can imagine, right? I mean, this is [a] worse situation. So how can the ILO work on economic empowerment of women? Our study showed that actually, women were more versatile in terms of surviving and they were also economically prudent in terms of managing their income, so in fact to provide support for [the] livelihood of [the] population affected by war, it's in fact women who [are] the conduit for local economic empowerment and their position. They showed us was the fact that they felt because they could survive with whatever little income they got and with the support from the ILO, they were able to manage their children. Because most adult men were requested to, you know, be part of this civil war, right? So women were the only one[s] left behind with young children. So these women came to the ILO and they said they were very happy. We stayed in Yemen despite [the] war situation. So again this is, you know, whenever life makes you feel unhappy or you feel stress, right? Such small appreciation from people you support really [livens] up your motivation to continue doing work on development. Sorry.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Oh wow.

Samuel Lee:

That that's. Yeah, that's a lot.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

That was a some heavy stuff. Yeah, that was the heavy stuff. Thank you for sharing these major difficulties, but we were also just wondering outside of these sort of major events and major sort of hardships that you face in, in your line of work, what are the sort of more minor difficulties that you might might face day-to-day? On a, like, a, perhaps difficult interactions you might face on a day-to-day basis. Doing this job or? Things that you might find hard to do within your position as head of an ILO region.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Well, let me share a story I shared with my son the other day, actually the most challenging part in my job, is managing people. OK. And it's already difficult, probably from your own student life. It's already difficult for you to interact with one person. Now I have to manage 25 people reporting to me directly, not to mention those who are also.

Samuel Lee:

Oh.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Reporting directly indirectly rather. So altogether, about 40 people. And if you are not very careful, just the way you talk to them, maybe perceive as either you know. You are not giving them appreciation and you are not taking into account their achievement, just because you didn't say any, you know, kind words of that day, right? And we are all human beings. Sometimes you don't feel like even say anything nice to yourself, right? And people reporting to you feel like they are underappreciated, so that's why I think this is in fact, in my view, the most challenging part of this job managing people. And my advice to you, if I can also say that in this podcast, is for you to also perhaps learn a lot more how to manage people. And if you can start doing it from now when you're still student, it will take you far once you start your career and employment in the future.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

There must be a lot of drama in the ILO and it seems if such a.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Oh, I can spend. I can spend the whole night with you chatting about all this drama, but I'm not gonna.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

That is full of a time for another time.

Samuel Lee:

Maybe in the next interview.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah, yeah, we can have another time of conversation on that.

Viandito Pasaribu:

So just speaking of. You and the stuff that you manage. I think our listeners would like to get a better idea of. What you and your staff are doing day-to-day, so could you just give us an overview of what the ILO is as an organization and its function within the UN more broadly?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah. OK. The ILO is a specialized agency of the United Nations. We focus our work on promoting decent work and social justice. And with that, what we mean is that you cannot just have any work. The work has to be productive. It has to also promote rights of people working in workplaces. And that's why we call our agenda is to promote decent work. It has to be decent and that's why we also talk about, you know, [legal] protection [and] working conditions because without looking into this you cannot end up with decent employment and we also want to deal with social justice because we believe that if people have this unemployment, then you can actually bring up equality among, you know, a large population. And that's why eventually it leads to social justice. And if you do have social justice in any given country, hopefully peace will prevail. That's the mandate now, because of that we, our membership comprises of three constituencies. The government as I mentioned before, often this is represented by the Ministry of Labour. And the workers, organizations representing workers and the employees organizations representing those who employ the workers. So that's basically in in a nutshell what the ILO is all about.

Samuel Lee:

Would you say then that you know, you were just mentioning before that it's a tripartite organization? So how how does the ILO then, you know, sort of interact with these stakeholders and balance these conflicts?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

OK. Well, I think. Let me just give you an example of how, for example, the organization set aside labour policy, right? So the ILO provides support to the government in terms of, let's say setting up minimum wage. And when you talk about minimum wage, you cannot just set a policy without consulting the employers, right? Because if the minimum wage is too high. My employer will complain and say, well, they cannot afford their businesses and therefore they may end up laying off the workers. At the same time, if you don't look after the consent of workers, [then] workers will complain like you know the share of the take of the productivity is not equally shared with them. And that's why they keep asking for higher minimum wage. So basically, the ILO is trying to connect the three. The parties together so that whenever a minimum wage policy, a given government is going to set up, it will still promote productivity, which is [in] the interest of the government and the employers. But at the same time you are making sure that workers will not forever be in poor condition because the income they earn out of that job is not enough for them to sustain their life. And for the government, it's important for them to listen to the two parties, the employers and workers, because at the end of the day, if these two parties are in conflict, the country will not develop economically. So we are more like trying to connect the interests of these three organizations together. So then the policy will balance out one another and will eventually hopefully lead to economic development as well as improved productivity and strengthened working conditions of the workers. I hope that clarifies what we do and I really want to convey this message because often people are not very clear. You know, that is how the Tripartism and social dialogue, the way we normally call it works. And if you have relatives, or maybe your siblings or your parents used to work for enterprises. I think they will appreciate better the linkages and interrelationships among these three constituencies of the ILO.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Moving down to sort of your specific region, we're also hoping to get some answers

about how South Southeast Asia, about Southeast Asia, the region being a economic like economically developing region. Has faced some significant human human rights issues in regards to some labor rights. How has how does the ILO combat these issues within that region?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yes. So one of the core mandates of the ILO is to promote what we call fundamental principles and rights at work. So under these principles, we deal with freedom of association and collective bargaining. IE; basically the rights of workers and employees to set up their own organizations to represent them. So that's one main element of it. The second part of this principle is to combat discrimination in workplaces and equality between men and women in terms of the work that they do. The third part of it is to combat force[d] labour and the last one is to eliminate child labour. So these are the four main principles. And you are right. A lot of Member States in [the] Asia Pacific still have problems, particularly when it comes to combating child labor because in some of the countries where the economic growth is relatively low, often children are being roped into employment not because their parents want them to be there. Yeah, but because the parents simply do not have any other ways of earning income, and that's why they end up having to employ their children. So just on this particular aspect on elimination of child labor, what the ILO does normally is to provide assistance to parents and elder sibling of the children and when our definition of young child labour is those at the age of below 15. And we also have a category of young worker between the age of 15 to 18. So our policy, our goal is for the government not to allow employment of children

below 15 and those below between 15 and 18. They can go and do some work, provided that they have access to education, so our assistance is normally to improve employment of parents and elder siblings above 18 so that parents are not forced to bring their children below 18 to work. So that's one way of dealing with it. And the 2nd way is of course to support the government to set up a policy that prevents employers from employing children below the age of 15. And have strict regulation as to what kind of employment [is] allowed for people between the age of 15 and 18 now. Because we are dealing with children, we also work very closely with UNICEF, the other sister agency of the UN. Dealing with promotion of life of children to also improve school systems in the country we are supporting so that children who are taken out of employment and put into schools, they end up graduating with proper qualifications and whether or not they continue on their study for university, whatever they learn in school can still help them find decent employment. So that's, you know, a simple way of dealing with a complex issue such as [the] elimination of child labour. I will not deal with the other three principles because it's a lot more complex to explain, but this is just a way of telling your audience about how you know we work with our constituents to address these four issues I mentioned before.

Viandito Pasaribu:

All right, I see. So Southeast Asia has made significant strides with the help of the ILO in. Dealing with issues regarding labor rights, but since Southeast Asia is still a

developing region, there are still issues with sort of. Workplace culture and since. States in Southeast Asia are sort of still working to boost productivity, as some have argued that. Southeast Asian states are still sort of very pro employer. What do you think about this statement and how is the ILO working? To adjust the issue of. Of a very demanding workplace culture in Southeast Asia.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

And that's a very interesting question and difficult to answer. But OK. It is true. You know, countries in South East Asia, they're all striving to grow their economies because, you know, without growing their economies, of course, their population in general will not benefit from, you know, better working condition[s]. And therefore I think some parts of the society say that it's very important to have long working hours for workers in order for them to produce goods that they can then be exported out of the countries to help boost the economy. I will not go into that discussion because I think that will be another forum. But from my own perspective, the way I see it is that it is important for employers to have productive workers, right? Because at the end of the day, you want to have you know, increased productivity of your workers so that the income your enterprises will get out of the employment of the workers will be higher, but at the same time. More and more, employers also realize that if you keep employing your workers in tedious jobs for long working hours. At the end of the day, that productivity goes down. So now employers also feel that for them to boost productivity, they need to also increase the wages of their workers because if workers earn higher wages, they feel much more satisfied with their jobs, and therefore they are prone to be much more productive in delivering their jobs. And as the [economies] in Southeast Asia are also growing very, very fast. They are also looking into some other sectors of the economy where you do not just rely on manufacturing. So Thailand, for example, is now moving into service industries more than manufacturing because they realize they cannot compete with countries such as China or Vietnam, which are also going into manufacturing and Singapore, is then a good example where if you deal with service sectors of your economy, you will probably also attract more talented people to work in your country and in the end that will lead to higher productivity. So I think as the countries grow economically, they will also have to, they begin to realize that they need to also deal with the labor issues and not just looking at this from classical economic angle. And while we are talking about Southeast Asia, this is also one of the fast aging part[s] of the world. There will be more and more old workers in Southeast Asia in the next 10-15 years, and I think the country is beginning to then see what type of economic policy they will have to look into so that all the workers can stay in the labour market while at the same time keeping also the cohort of young people to do jobs in other sectors of the economy and I think this is one of the interesting issues that countries in Southeast Asia should deal with going forward. As for the ILO, what we are trying to help these countries in Southeast Asia is that they need to strike a balance between promoting economic growth. While at the same time lifting up, you know their population so that more and more people can, you know, go into the middle class segment of the population. Because only if you have [a] higher segment of your population in middle income will your country accelerate economic growth so, yeah. So let me put it that way Over.

Samuel Lee:

What do you think? I guess, you know the ILO falls short. In what areas do you think they could work on? If you're allowed to answer that question, that is.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

If that's very interesting of you to ask Sam. I think the ILO is a very old organization. I think in 2019 we were 100 years. So now it's 2024? So we are, what, 105?. So we are, we are a very old organization. We are a dinosaur, one of the areas. I think the ILO needs to improve going forward is in terms of innovation. We are not as advanced as perhaps some of our sister agencies in terms of embracing, you know, artificial intelligence. And unless we take this into account in the way we deliver our work, our Member States will probably look for other agencies to help them. And deal with the issue of artificial intelligence and how these will affect the labor market and the reason why I link this to innovation because when you talk about artificial intelligence, you also need to change the way you do business, right? So it doesn't have to mean more automation in the way we do business, but also perhaps we need to look at different way[s] of doing the same thing that we use[d] to do and I when I look at the. Since I also deal with the human resources of our office, right? The median age of our workforce in the ILO is 35 and above. So that shows we are not attracting young people to work in our organization and then unless we attract more young people like you guys, I think we may end up being, you know, a very old traditional organization that eventually people will forget about. And that's why we need to really deal with this issue relatively quickly.

Samuel Lee:

Just now you know, you mentioned how artificial intelligence is becoming a, you know larger part in businesses and labour market. How would the ILO start to embrace and confront artificial intelligence both in, you know, in good and bad ways?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yes, so in terms of the policy. When we are beginning to do some research to see, you know, how to combat concern and fear in some part of the government where they feel that artificial intelligence will actually take people out of employment, right? And we are doing some research to show, so that if we human being[s] know how to use artificial intelligence, we will not be taken out of the employment. In fact, we will, the demand for human resources will be even higher because we can deliver the same products faster. And that's why we need to do some research to see you know how we can combat [it]. Is it concerned in some parts of the of the government now we are also working closely with the trade unions to see how unions can help their members in terms of rescaling their members so that they can learn faster on other issues that they would normally not deal with the support of artificial intelligence. And Singapore is a good example where you know the NTUC, the National Trade Union Council is looking at a possibility of supporting their sister organizations in other Southeast Asian countries to see how workers organizations can use AI to manage the way they run their organizations. For example, in terms of collecting their dues [and] expanding their membership. Particularly targeting people who are young and much more savvy in terms of their understanding of artificial intelligence. So these are two examples that the ILO has been working on. But like I said at the beg- you know earlier, we are still in [the] early days in terms of coming up with services and policy advice on dealing with AI in in labour market.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Moving on from that. Every year you attend the International Labor Conference. Could you just possibly give us an idea of like what are the main points that are discussed at this conference, and do they reflect the broader conflicts between these Member States present at that conference?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah. So. [The] International Labour conference is actually a parliament of labour. So once a year in Geneva, we bring in all our constituents from government, employees and workers from all our hundred and so Member States to discuss a number of high level labour agenda. And one of the functions of The Labor Conference is actually to come up with what we call international conventions, right, so we have these conventions that regulate different labor issues and then once the conventions are adopted by the conference. The idea is for the Member States to then adopt this Convention and put them into practice in their law and in places. Now let me just give you an example. I think it was in 2021 or is it in 2022 where the ILO International Labour Conference adopted a Convention on harassment in workplaces basically this was an effort to combat violence and harassment in workplaces suffered by workers as well as by some employers. And this was novelty because until 2021, I think there was no international regulations as to how you deal with violence and harassment at workplaces, but evidence showed that there were more and more violence in workplaces, partly because perhaps this was the [side] effect of COVID-19. Where during that time workplaces were actually closed and home became workplaces right? So violence that never happened or never existed before then became an issue. And that's why the conference is important because they will look at what are new issues in [the] labour market that need to be regulated internationally and based on adoption of the conventions. Then Member States can also aspire to apply these conventions in their National Labor policy. What is interesting about the International Labor Conference, if I can share a little bit with you, is that this is the event where you can really see in action, you know, policy makers from government, employers and workers [can have] dialogue among themselves, looking at the pros and cons of any new convention that they want to promulgate. And you can really appreciate how you know they debated even whether the conventions that they would adopt would actually lead to better working condition or not. And being in the secretariat of the conference myself.

I could appreciate the debate that was going on among these different groups. The number of long working hours we have to spend to serve our constituents and I think, this is, how should I say this is one of the venues where you can see that when it comes to employees and workers, you then, you don't always associate them with this kind of harmonious social dialogue debate among themselves, because often people associate, you know, workers with going on strikes and so on. But the conference is really a gathering of, you know, like minded people to improve working condition[s] of [the] population in the world over.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

I was wondering how the ILO oversees and ensures the implementation of the agreements reached during the ILCs.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah, so once a convention is adopted by the conference. The office [of] The Secretariat of the ILO. Then sends the document of this convention to all Member States. And we ask Member States to consider adopting these conventions into their national labour law. So what we are supposed to do is then every year we ask our Member States whether they would be committed to rectifying the new conventions and if they say they are not yet ready, we then offer our technical advice to explain to them what the Convention is all about. What are the discrepancies between the principles in the Convention, vis-a-vis their own national labour law. And then how we can help them? How should what should I say?

Explain this to [the] layman on the street so that you know when you talk about the principles of the Convention. It's not just about law, but it's about something that is easy for people to understand. So we come up with some, you know, fact sheets [and] information sessions so that people can understand [the] Principles of the Convention and what that means in reality for people in factories or people in offices and so on. So that's what we normally do. Once a new convention is adopted, and then after the Convention is ratified by the Member States, our job is to make sure that the Member States do. Promote these conventions in law and in practice, and if there is [a] discrepancy between the principles of the Convention and the application. We then ask Member States to explain why their labour law is not in conformity with the principles of the Convention. That's the way we normally do. It's if I can say it, it's the boring part of the ILO. It's probably [a] jobs for lawyers because this is really pure legal issues.

Samuel Lee:

Um, one of the things that come to our attention is the brain drain issue in Southeast Asia. According to an article written by The Nation, the Thai newspaper, the brain drain rate stands at 5.5% of its pop its population in a country like Malaysia, which is. Significantly higher than the global average of 3.3. Percent. How do you think the region should tackle these issues? And get a, I guess return on investment from those who've gone overseas to study.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah, I think two ways of dealing with this issue. One is of course you need to retain these people in your domestic employment and for you to do that. Then you need to be competitive in terms of salary you provide right to intelligent people. Secondly, beyond pure labour issue[s]. You should also try to make your countries attractive because a lot of these intelligent young people, normally you know they are much more productive if you give them the environment for them to explore to fail. To try. And unless countries provide such an opportunity. These people will easily just walk out of your country and find employment somewhere else. So that's why I think it's important for countries to look into the type of working conditions. And the type of economic sector that they want to pursue because if you just rely on, you know, manufacturing as the main source of your economic growth. A lot of these intelligent people will probably try to find jobs somewhere else which is giving them the opportunity to explore and do some research. So that's one way of looking at it, the 2nd is of course you need to perhaps provide higher share of your government budget on research because if you don't invest, if you don't innovate. You will not be able to retain these people from moving out of your country and unfortunately, a lot of countries in Southeast Asia have not yet increased their government budget on research and development. But speaking of this issue, the other thing of interest for Southeast Asia is these countries are very much interconnected economically. Let me just put it this way for Thailand to sustain its economic growth, it has to attract workers from Cambodia and Laos because the Thais, they do not want to do some of the jobs. Which are not [giving] them good income. Or probably they also want to find employment somewhere else outside Thailand because you know the wages they earn will be a lot more than what they can get in Thailand, so while brain drain may be an issue for [a] country sending migrant workers out, so it may be a problem for Laos and Cambodia. But unless, you know, all these neighbouring countries collectively sit down and look at, you know, what will be of interest for them in terms of attracting young, motivated workers, the issue will continue. And I think it will be very difficult to combat brain drain because, you know, the countries are still competing among one another, and at some point they need to look at, you know, the totality of labour and employment issues within the sub region of Southeast Asia.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Sticking to that theme of development, with South Asia being a developing country, there seems to be a lot of bias towards sort of the STEM subjects. You know, science, engineering, a lot of these companies are looking for sort of engineers, economists, these more practical degrees. What possible prospects? Would there be for? Students pursuing some, the humanities and the arts within this region.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

OK. Interesting question. Before I answer that question, I think it's good also to hear from you guys. What do you think will be? The challenges, because you are all in political science, right? So it would be good for us, for me to also hear your own perspective and then we can have a, I can then come in with my own perspective. But it would be good to see from your audience or from your own experience why you think this is not an attractive part of the education when it comes to, you know, human development. What's your perspective to it? I think it would be good for me to also hear your view because I have my own perspective but maybe it's good to to start with what you think about it.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

From my experience, going to career fairs, career fairs here hosted for. Hosted for Thai students. I myself am Thai. There's a there's a yearly sort of career fair hosted for Thai students in this region, and every year I go. A lot of the companies there are often sort of banks, oil companies or, you know, major sort of economic businesses. The closest firm I could find. It was a Policy Research firm in Thailand. However, they seem to also be very interested in ideas of development, so their ideas tend to come off as more so economic focused, more focused on sort of new technologies or so that falls into engineering. Very, very rarely have I found an opportunity for a for a historian like myself to sort of really find the space in this market that's so eager for more practical degrees, such as stem. Not saying my degree is not practical, but. It makes it does feel that way.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

OK. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on that, and let me come in with my own views. I think it is true that you know a lot of entrepreneurs. They are looking for people doing

with the hardcore technology, businesses, banking. Uh, but issues such as humanity, history, international relations. To me, it's a niche, if you can find how to connect understanding of [the] history of Southeast Asia for these companies to flourish. [If you can't] they will not be able to sustain their economic growth. Let me give you an example. Right, if you’re Japan and China and Korea. They invest in Thailand, they invest in Vietnam for car manufacturing. Where subjects such as humanities such as history such as development, will be of interest, is because the interconnectedness of these countries in Southeast Asia. And if Japanese car manufacturing wants to grow right in in Thailand, they will have to bring in workers from neighboring countries, right? And people doing social science can see how you can attract young, motivated workers from Indonesia say, or from [the] Philippines to go and work in Thailand or in Vietnam in this car manufacturing. And that's where the social science people comes into the picture. You can bring the perspective of understanding human culture. Because like I said at the beginning, managing human relations is very important. Secondly, you can also motivate these workers to come to Thailand because you can also bring their better understanding of their culture. There are certain way[s] of maybe Filipinos you know when they interact with Thai colleagues, there may be misunderstanding because what is accepted in the Philippine society may not be the same in Thailand. And people who understand social issues can easily look at these issues right away and that's why I said at the beginning you need to find your niche.

You should try to connect how history, how the soft subject of social sciences can connect, can bring the important aspect of human relations because at the end of the day, based on my own experience of working with the ILO for 27 years. Unless you deal with your human resources very well, your enterprises will not flourish. And for people working or studying in the subject in the soft subject of social sciences, you have to see how you bring in and go beyond your classical subject And see how it can bring in the interpersonal relationship into the picture. I think that will be the future going forward for people studying the issue of political science and other social sciences in general, and I have seen in my own organization that the top leaders are those who are not as a savvy businessman, but in fact they are coming from the background of social sciences because they understand people better. So don't get demotivated [and] pursue your study because I think what you really need to embrace is how you become, how you maintain your uniqueness because you have to turn it into something. You have to turn this into an opportunity for you. That's what I'm trying, what I'm trying to say. So don't spend too much on just understanding history, but how history affects economic development. That's the angle you need to look at. And that's what I keep telling Argya to, and my son to, pursue, you know. Going forward.

Pasaribu, Oktavianto:

Just one last thing I want to say I think. My experience tells me that a lot of issues when it comes to development when it comes to. Humanitarian is the foundation for stronger economic development.

Viandito Pasaribu:

Yeah. It's great to hear that us social science students from Southeast Asia still have hope in this increasingly competitive labour market here. And I would like to move on as well to a an issue that is of special interest to our listeners. I believe, which is careers advice for those who were interested in working at the UN. So I'd like to know whether you had any special information on how someone might begin a career with the United Nations.

Oktavianto Pasaribu: OK. Well, specifically with [the] United Nations first. I think it's important like I said, if you can speak more than one language, one of the working languages of the UN. And it's good if you can invest on this, you know, as early as you possibly can. Secondly, you need to really like development agenda, because the UN is basically all about development. If it is not in your heart, then maybe you know you should pursue [another] career. And the other thing is of course, the UN is also evolving. We are also dealing with issues [that] traditionally, we don't deal with like artificial intelligence like innovation. And I think if you are also into this subject, it would be good if you can connect that with the development work.

So development is not just, you know, handing out, you know, money for so that people can eat. You have to see it from a different perspective. And I think young, you know, young people like you are, you can probably have a better idea of sorting out development issues from a different perspective that probably people of my generation won't see because you are exposed to a lot more technology, you, you know, just give me. Just give me an example of social media, right? Crowdfunding was never thought of before now. UNICEF Is using crowdfunding to fund resources to support their program for alleviation of child malnutrition, for example. So my advice is really if development is in your heart then try to also find innovative way of dealing with these issues. And that will. Open the door for you to work in UN organizations. But I think it's also important to go beyond just the UN, because now there are a lot more international NGOs who are also providing development assistance and they are a lot more endowed in terms of funding, right, because so many rich billionaires want to put money to support the work of international NGO[s], so you can also explore these other organizations. And finally, I think, maybe it's not right to say you need to know what you want, because often when you know when I was your age, I also didn't know exactly what I wanted. But the only thing I wanted was to work in an international forum [or] international organization. So perhaps if that's also your aspiration, it would be good from now to explore what are the other avenues for you to pursue that agenda. But again, don't worry so much if you don't know now what exactly your future career will be, because often it happens by accident. You don't intentionally want to do it, but you somehow land in one work and then the job opens up for you. So just enjoy what you are doing, doing currently, but try to remain open minded and see what other perspectives [and] what are the opportunities that may be out there. And the other way of also looking at [a] career is you should start from something small you know. Don't worry so much if you see your peers or your colleagues or did he get a job, you know, somewhere and you haven't got anything. Just start with something within your control, within what you are able to do. And then use your connection through social media so then people can appreciate what you are doing now and they will then reach out to you and that will lead you to any future. career opportunity, that's my advice.

Samuel Lee:

See, in that case you know I guess. Are there any personality traits you think are important to working in an organization like the UN? Like what? What personal qualities must you have?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

First you need to be open minded. International organizations like the UN, we have human resources from different background[s], so you need to appreciate the way other people deal with their their lives. If you already confine yourself to the way you look at things and don't appreciate other people's way of dealing with things, then it's difficult for you to pursue [a] career in international organization.

Samuel Lee:

Hmm.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

And the second thing that you need to also consider is you have to keep pushing yourself. By definition, international organizations bring people from all over the world. Unless you really push yourself, unless you really, how should I say, sell yourself right? People won't recognize you, and in a big organization such as the UN, it's important for people to know you, even if that person is only one person to whom you report. If that person gives recognition to what you do and you make sure that he or she appreciates you. Then you will move up fast in the career ladder in the UN organizations. But again, having this discussion, I'm not quite sure you know what will be the future of the UN, 15, 20 years from now, right? It may be a different ball game altogether. So that's why I mentioned earlier, don't just confine it to the UN, but look at other possibilities such as international NGOs. Who probably will also give you different exposure while working in an international forum. So there you go, Sam.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

We talked a lot about like what user can do and what you should do at the UN, but we were also hoping you could give us some answers about what you can do as a private citizen, which you couldn't do while working at for the UN. But I'm sure working with this international level organization, you sort of have to be very careful with what you do.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Hmm. OK. How should I put it? And I think my son knows this because of the demand of the job right. By the time I get back home, I already feel exhausted and all I want to do is watch Netflix, right? That's a way of me of getting the stress out of myself. But now that you mention this I think being [a] international civil servant. There are many opportunities that I should explore more and maybe bring back to the society. And that can start from, you know, perhaps organizing some sort of event on you know what it is like, what you just asked me what it is. The UN is all about. What [the] UN means to, you know, people on the streets. I think that kind of event or would be something that, I would like to explore more. It's also good to have this kind of, you know, like this podcast. I really appreciate this because I think this makes me also think of what are the perspectives of young people like you, and how you see?

Samuel Lee:

Mm hmm.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

You know. People like me, who has been in the organization for so long and we should, you know, continue this kind of dialogue discussion with young people like you and you should also explore, you know, working with or having podcasts with other people who have been in international order, but not necessarily the UN, because that can also give a different perspective to your audience, of what it means of working internationally. And the other thing that we can probably do more, and we should some of us have already done this, is to actually go to, bring you know, people like you to be ambassadors and then shadow us. So you come to our office, spend maybe a day with us, you know, you are our shadow. So you see how we do our business, how we interact with others, how we, you know, conduct meetings, because that helps prepare you in understanding, you know how things are done or in big organizations such as the UN, while at the same time for us to be also conscious, rather of the presence of young people. So then we can also be mindful when we conduct our businesses so that, you know, we say things that our organizations are supposed to deliver rather than just, you know, say high things. And in fact we don't put it into into practice. So that is the kind of thing, I would like to explore more. I was invited to be a guest lecture in Chulalongkorn University. I think it was for [an] undergraduate program on, I can't remember now. It was International Relations or political science.

Samuel Lee:

It's very impressive.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

So I would, yes. So I was asked to talk about, I think the UN in general and ILO specifically. And we spent about 3 hours to talk about it and I appreciate it. So you know, you need to. I realize I have to run the lecture in a different way than the way I learn about the subject. When I was your age because I think, you know, people of your age as students that I deliver the lectures. They have a different way of absorbing things, right? So after that lecture I realized I should have perhaps approached the subject in a different way. Use different techniques to deliver the lectures and that makes me feel fresh again, you know, like I'm challenged to learn how to reach out to students in, in universities. And that makes me realize that again, you know, organizations such as ours should really embrace innovation going forward, because unless we innovate, we will not able to retain, you know, young and motivated colleagues to stay with us.

Samuel Lee:

I guess now that we're coming to the end of this lovely interview. Thank you again, by the way, for doing this. What's your one piece of advice for any of us? Anyone out there who's interested in working for one of an international organization such as the UN?

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

OK. The only advice I have is if you can just embrace one subject of interest from whatever it is that you now study. It is already a good starting point for you to pursue your career, and it can be anything. You don't have to confine it to, you know, the core subject of political science. No, it can be anything and pursue it, learn about it [and] Try to connect with people working on that subject because unless you know your niche, you are competing with so many million work people going into the labor market a few years from now.

Samuel Lee:

Mm hmm.

Oktavianto Pasaribu: And you therefore you need to be able to show what you are good at. For people to pay attention to you. You need to get, you need to make your future employers hooked with whatever it is that is your niche. That's what I would suggest. But you know, enjoy life, relax, while pursuing that thing. Don't overthink it and don't stress out if you are not yet able to identify it because over time you will know exactly what what your niche is.

Samuel Lee:

Thank you so much for doing this interview. It was lovely talking to you.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah. And thank you for inviting me.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Thank you

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Don't hesitate to contact me if you need another resource person for your future podcast.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Thank goodness.

Samuel Lee:

Thank you so much.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

Make it so much that it's very, very interesting.

Samuel Lee:

Thank you so much.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

OK.

Viandito Pasaribu:

Thank you very much. Yeah.

Oktavianto Pasaribu:

Yeah. Thank you.

Peerajit Phasitthanaphak:

You've given us a lot to think about. Thank you so much.