Baghdad to San Antonio: A Marine Corps & Law Enforcement Story: An Interview with Brian Curtis

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*The transcript has been edited for readability and clarity by Declan Browne & Augustine Acuna III.

*Square brackets [ ] have been added for improved readability

Hosted by Samuel Lee, Augustine Acuna III, Declan Browne, and Brian Curtis

Special thanks to Mr. Brian Curtis and Augustine Acuna III.

Augustine Acuna III:

Good. Alright so, Brian Curtis, could you introduce yourself to our viewers?

Curtis, Brian: 

You bet. My name is Brian Curtis, and I live here in San Antonio, Texas. I did a stint in the Marine Corps. I think that's why you all honored me with a call today, but once I got out of the service, I went to work in law enforcement first in Colorado and then down here in San Antonio for the Sheriff's Office down here. But that's pretty much the professional side of it. If you want me to elaborate on anything else, please let me know.

Samuel Lee:

No, I do think that's good. I was hoping to ask you actually, what inspired you to pursue a career in the military?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure. I actually was one of those kids growing up where that was my dream. Ever since I can remember having a memory, to be honest with you. I played war every chance I got. I grew up on a big piece of property in Wyoming with nothing around me, so I didn't have too many friends. So I kind of had to invent myself. But no, it was kind of a dream of mine and a passion all the way up through so, yeah, I really, honestly don't remember wanting to pursue a career in anything else 

Declan Browne:

Okay. So on that note, how would you say that the Marines lived up to your expectations of them?

Curtis, Brian:

Well, I'll tell you when I was just like every other profession or career. When I first joined, it exceeded everything. You know, it was a dream come true. As you grow into any profession, sometimes the shiny stuff wears off a little bit. If you will, right? But for the most part, it lived up to everything and more. I was extremely lucky to be able to do a great many things that I wanted to in a short period of time, mainly, obviously due to the, uh, the international scene at that time. You know, I'm you probably all know the statistics better than I, but the percentage of people in the military that actually get a chance to go to combat or see combat is extremely low. So to be able to see, I guess you could say as much as I did in a short period was unique.

Augustine Acuna III:

Yeah. No, I think it definitely was from our prior conversations you mentioned that you went to the Virginia Military Institute (VMI). What was the most important lesson you learned there, and how do you think it prepared you for a career in the military?

Curtis, Brian:

Well, two lessons from there. One I was not as smart as I thought it was, and two, the only way, at least from me personally, I was going to succeed in life was extremely hard work. So from day one there I learned that I had to work extremely hard at everything, whether it was academics, physical, Marine Corps related things. That was definitely the biggest lesson from there.

Samuel Lee:

Where was your first deployment then, after you completed your time at VMI.

Curtis, Brian:

Sure. So in the Marine Corps, as an officer, you usually spend about a year training in Quantico, Virginia, and then you're assigned your first duty station. Once you complete the first course that everyone has to go through as an officer. Regardless, your specialty is six months and then you choose your specialty. I chose infantry and then spent about another four months in Quantico going through the infantry course there. So was then stationed out at a place called twenty-nine Palms in California. [I] spent very relatively little time there because we deployed so much, but my first deployment was actually to the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia area. And so that was actually our first real deployment over there and we stopped in Singapore by the way, so.

Declan Browne:

So, speaking of that, why do you think they chose to deploy you to the Philippines instead of like the Middle East, considering the time?

Curtis, Brian:

Well, I laugh. I told I think, Gus, this story before. In typical Marine Corps fashion - we were - My base was in California, obviously kind of a desert. The Marine Corps prides itself on being able to fight in any environment and climate, and that kind of thing. But we were kind of seen as a desert specialty unit and of course 9/11 kind of hits, pre-9/11 also, and instead of sending us to the desert, they send us to the jungle. So that was kinda -  I can't tell you why, it was this unique experience that we adapted fairly quickly. We had actually tan camouflage when we first showed up in the Philippines, so we had to change out into something more applicable to that environment. But so I couldn't tell you exactly why, other than it was just a bureaucratic government.

Augustine Acuna III:

Preparing you for the unexpected, I suppose.

Curtis, Brian:

Exactly right.

Augustine Acuna III:

So what was it like to be thrown into Iraq afterwards? Or you were in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia before then, right?

Curtis, Brian:

So we went early March of 2003 to Kuwait. That was where the majority of the units staged -  was Kuwait. So we were there. I don't want to say we were the first ground units there, but probably one of the first five-hundred troops that actually were in Kuwait staged up. So yeah, that's where we initially staged for.

Samuel Lee:

Had the military given you, like, a sort of cultural sensitivity training prior to the deployment, such as, you know, topics and customs you should have adhered to or you know something of that sort.

Curtis, Brian:

Yeah, they did. They did. The Marine Corps has a mantra - Also, we have nothing but mantras in the Marine Corps. So one of them, that famous General Mattis, who was Secretary of Defense later under Trump, kind of one of the icons of my generation of Marines, said that Marines can be your best friend or your worst enemy. It's your choice. In my experience, the most seasoned warriors that I dealt with were also the best peacekeepers, so I think there's a lot of misconception out there that you can't be both. And like I said, just my experience actually shows the complete opposite. So when it came to culture training, that kind of thing, sure, we received some, but I think the actual combat training bled into that effectiveness.

Declan Browne:

Okay. So what would you say your interactions with the local populace were like when you were down on the ground?

Curtis, Brian:

So we were one of the first first units to crossover during the beginning of the war. So we had - as I meet veterans of that war - It seems like every year/increment depending on when you were there, had a very, very unique experience. So people that were there in 2004, versus 2003, dealt with a lot more of the insurgency and terrorists and that kind of thing had a whole different - like I said - point of view. My experience with locals early on was extremely good. We were - We dealt with or were met with nothing but, you know, praise and and and that kind of thing from the locals. Once we were established in set cities, throughout some of the time, we had great interaction with the locals. So like I said, my personal experience was very good.

Augustine Acuna III:

I guess a critical tool in that relationship would be the local interpreters and the guides. Did you ever feel like, you know, maybe they were changing words or making changes in some way that altered your trust?

Curtis, Brian:

No, we had several interpreters that were actual American citizens that had lived in the states for quite a while in the sense of that. So my trust, of interpreters was pretty high again. That may have varied as they started to get more, more local interpreters hired, but I'll be honest with you there I would say 75% of the population we dealt with, spoke, spoke good enough English to have conversation and deal with. So we were able to do that then. We were able to pretty well converse for the most part in English.

Augustine Acuna III:

I did not know that. 

Curtis, Brian:

Mhm

Samuel Lee:

So based on, you know our prior conversations, how did you confront the Fedayeen?

Curtis, Brian:

So the Fedayeen, and again like I said, the Fedayeen really weren't active when I was there. They were definitely obviously in the country, but at the time most of our frontline top troops were on the ground and I think they knew enough at that time, they weren't established and didn’t have enough organization to really have much success with us, so they waited until we turned over with a  lot of the reserve units and National Guard units -  the kind of more  peacekeeping operation units - before they started actually become more active and attack. So I had very little - other than coming across some of their arm compounds where they were, you know, stashing guns and weapons and that kind of thing - we really didn't have too much interaction with them.

Declan Browne:

For your time when you were there, what would you say was your hardest was the hardest thing about being a soldier during a deployment?

Curtis, Brian:

In the Iraq Operation, Iraqi Freedom in particular?

Declan Browne:

Yeah.

Curtis, Brian:

So I would say probably the most difficult thing that I dealt with was in its adaptivity. But the changing of our mission or overall strategy and mission so drastically when we got there initially - The Marine Corps was usually designed to take a beach, if you will take a foothold into a country and potentially push maybe ten miles inland and hold it for more, follow-on forces to come in. I.e. usually the army, so that was kind of our initial planning and staging initially was to push about ten miles inland to some oil fields. And so within about a week of us crossing over the border, that entire plan changed. And they decided we were gonna become basically a spring force of the highways to get to Baghdad as quickly as possible. So that was a difficult transition - A lot of changes, a lot of plan changes but it worked well, it worked well in the end.

Augustine Acuna III:

Based off, I think you mentioned it earlier - that you were an executive officer. Did you have any secondary roles that you know may have differed from other soldiers?

Curtis, Brian:

I did, I did. And it, and it was a very unique and memorable experience. So I was an executive officer of an infantry company which when we crossed, we were fully staffed with about 250/ 275 Marines. But I was also with the Marine Corps which has what they call a FST team, a fire support team and it's kind of a master of all missions, if you will, in the sense that we have to be prepared for raids - Hostage rescue. But our primary mission is to push forward and get established for fire support positions, whether that be air support, artillery, naval gunfire if we’re close enough. But those are the primary missions for that. So that unit I ran was different between about six to eight guys. So I spent about 75% of my time running that unit and then would bounce back to the larger company size. So it was, It was nice to get a little bit of both worlds.

Samuel Lee:

You know, I myself have been in the military, but never to your home. You know your extent. I did two years of military service in Singapore. How would you say you know you've balanced - You know your camaraderie with your  fellow soldiers while also adhering to you the necessities of military hierarchy?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure, the Marine Corps, especially the infantry, is unique in that in the aspect of for the minute you become a Marine Corps officer, you're trained that your primary job is #1 mission accomplishment. But second, the very close second is troop welfare. So we definitely put our troops in front of us much more than any other, at least United States, service does, which can lead to. But on the flip side of that, I was also enlisted. So I got to see both sides of the training aspect on the listed side. They preach that officers are gods in some ways. So that mixture of service on both sides, servants too if you would, works out extremely well. So the hierarchy of the Marine Corps, especially the infantry is extremely unique and it usually doesn't have - We don't have a problem typically with crossover, if you will, in the sense of any kind of fraternization. Just because of that initial training on how you're to deal with both enlisted and officers. So that's unique. Like I said, when it comes to the different branches. So I definitely had - being in a smaller unit, that can become a little bit more difficult when you're out, you know, in the field for a long extended periods of time and I was the only officer in my FST team. So everyone else in there was enlisted. So you do have a little bit more of a quandary there. But yeah, so on the Marine corp side of the house that’s usually how that usually works.

Declan Browne:

So, considering your experiences, would you say that you ever realized that you had something in common with your enemies, or like combatants?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure, absolutely. The very first, and I think I'm sure you all have read and that kind of thing about the Iraqi military being substandard, to say the least. What we found was, the military itself, was actually extremely well trained. Their equipment was substandard, but the the first defensive position that we came across was you could say a regular infantry unit in Iraq.

And they fled and they didn't flee, I believe out of any kind of cowardice or scaredness, they just, I don't believe, they truly believed in the cause, but their actual defensive positions were extremely well set up for what they had. We got a lot of differing looks on how we looked at them, which I think was actually good for us because we were kind of going into it thinking we were going to play against some substandard teams and as we push further north to Baghdad, some of the units we came across were extremely well trained. So the special Republican Guard and that kind of thing that we fought outside of Baghdad, you could definitely see similarities in the units and the tactics and the things that they were using were very similar to ours. So yeah, you naturally start to start to feel a little bit more common with them as you as you see them work across the battlefield. Very similar to you.

Augustine Acuna III:

So we have a quote from General Petraeus. And it goes: "If I had been given more troops and more time, we could have improved the situation." How do you feel about the sentiment?

Curtis, Brian:

I got a laugh 'cause that's definitely an army mentality, right? So we have to laugh at that because I would say the Marine Corps is the complete opposite. We kind of pride ourselves in the history of doing more with less, less equipment, less men. So we kind of look at it in that old way - that's if we have one lion rather than, you know, one-hundred sheep. We’ll go into battle with that and be more successful. So I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment at all. I think if you are prepared, have the right warriors behind you, you can achieve what you need to do with very limited resources.

Samuel Lee:

Based on your, you know your experiences in Iraq and whatnot. Do you think that U.S. military intervention was the right thing to do, or do you think Iraq would have been better left with, you know, Saddam Hussein in power?

Curtis, Brian:

From my own observations and that kind of thing on the ground as well as obviously what I've read since then last 25 plus years, I absolutely do think from a humanitarian standpoint, absolutely. It was the right thing for the people of Iraq when you talk about economic-wise  and that kind of thing, especially on the oil side. That's a very interesting conversation, and to me the most interesting thing is you really don't hear very much about it. In the sense of the Iraqi oil economy, it's one of the major oil fields in the world and you just don't hear that much about it, which is interesting, but from a humanitarian standpoint, I would say absolutely it was. And I do believe the Iraqi people are significantly different cultural wise than, say, Iran, Afghanistan, that kind of thing to where I believe they can coexist and be extremely successful in a modern world .So on that aspect, I think it was absolutely a good thing.

Declan Browne:

So would you say like considering you know everything that you've been through, would you say that you've missed military life?

Curtis, Brian:

I would say yes, especially the first probably four to five years after I got out. Definitely missed it, as I transitioned into obviously a kind of paramilitary organization, being law enforcement. Kind of gradually smooth that process out, maybe more so than someone getting outgoing straight into civilian jobs in life and that kind of thing. So, but yeah, sure, I absolutely miss it. The professionalism, overall, of the organization. It is what's nice on a day, its consistency, um on a day-to-day basis.

Augustine Acuna III:

So twenty years on, do you think many aspects of the armed forces have changed? And I guess, more pertinent to people in war studies, would you still recommend a career in the armed forces?

Curtis, Brian:

I have to smile because any crotchety old warrior becomes pessimistic, right? Like ‘the new generation isn't strong enough and and and we're going to be doomed and invaded by China’ and everything else. And I get on that bandwagon sometimes, you know. Listening to you know, the armed forces, especially the Marine Corps, getting softer, you know, and worried about different things. But of course we hound the Air Force as being probably the lowest warrior aspect of the United States military, but about a year ago, we actually held our SWAT INDOC, our tryouts at the Air Force Base here in San Antonio because they have a lot better facilities and that kind of thing, I think they actually have a special forces group in the Air Force now. So we linked up with them and their facilities to use and it was extremely encouraging to see those twenty-year-old Air Force special operators training and it made me smile and realize that. It doesn't change that much and it's just a new branch, sure there are differences, obviously with any profession but we're gonna be just fine.

Samuel Lee:

How would you say your transition back to civilian life was compared to the people you served with in the army?

Curtis, Brian:

I mean mine was good. Like I said, mine was relatively smooth, like I said, kind of going back into a paramilitary organization. You know, I stayed in touch with, you know, both enlisted troops of mine, as well as officers. I’ve slowly lost touch over the years and that kind of thing, but really did not have any or heard of any difficulties with transitioning back. When I left Kuwait or excuse me when I left Iraq in 2003, I came back with about 150 troops that were getting ready to transition out, and I think a majority of  them, a great number of them, had a good successful transition.

Declan Browne:

So on the note of like a transition from military to back to civilian life, what would you say may have caused you to decide to go into the police force as a civilian career?

Curtis, Brian:

Well, I wouldn't say it was necessarily a natural transition, but my specialty is combat. I mean that was my specialty - That was my profession. And on the SWAT side, special operations side of  law enforcement, at least the larger agencies. There are a lot of similarities in that aspect, that's kind of where I transitioned to just because that was my specialty, if you will and profession

Augustine Acuna III:

What are the day-to-day responsibilities of SWAT? What do they entail?

Curtis, Brian:

So it really, in the states, depends on the size of the agency. I don't - don't 100% call me, but I believe about 95% of all SWAT teams in the United States are considered part time units. The officers that are on it have obviously other collateral duties that are their primary usually patrol. Larger agencies roughly about 5% are somewhere in between a full time team. That's their sole duty. And maybe like 75% if you will. So my agency, we’re slowly creeping to a full time unit in the sense of number of missions in that kind of frequency of missions that we do. So right now we're about 75 or 80%, so, like I said, I guess you could consider us up in that 5 percentile. So our primary duties, typically we spend probably about 80% of our time doing high risk warrants, whether those warrants be arrest warrants or drug warrants typically. And then usually around 20% of our time is on spontaneous call outs. If you will, barricaded subjects, hostages, that kind of thing. So that's typically on what our mission side is.

Samuel Lee:

So you mentioned before that you were an XO/Executive Officer, now that you're a SWAT member, would you say that there are any similarities or differences in the role?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure. Absolutely. I would say there's definitely probably 80% bleed over, if you will in commonality, just that planning of the missions is very, very similar. On the tactics side, obviously we have some different tactics if you will, that we utilize in law enforcement in the United States. We can't use suppressive artillery fire when we're moving toward a warrant house, but that actual - on the ground - especially when you get inside of the buildings, tactics are very similar. So I would say overall planning wise and execution is actually more difficult on the law enforcement side, just because there are more restrictions, more laws, policies and that kind of thing that have to be followed.

Declan Browne:

So considering your work, would you say that your proximity to Mexico has an impact on your duties and how you approach it?

Curtis, Brian:

Absolutely. Absolutely yes. So we're about, give or take about 150 miles from the border and being one of the first major hubs of Interstate traffic from Mexico across the border in Texas, it absolutely influences our day-to-day operations in the sense of what we what we see and deal with. On the actual threat side of it. I wouldn't necessarily say the threats that we come across normally are anymore greater or less than say Chicago SWAT team. Most of the cartels and that kind of thing know that if they were to escalate anything across the border with us in the sense of, say, firearms or anything like that. And they've and they've done in the past where they'll slowly try to escalate it. It very much does not work in their favor and at the end of the day, it's about money for them. So they very much want to keep it as low-key as possible. So I would say the threat wise isn't necessarily greater, but the actual frequency of missions and that kind of thing is enhanced because of it.

Augustine Acuna III:

If you're able and comfortable discussing it, have you had any missions that were particularly memorable to you?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure. On the SWAT side of the house?

Augustine Acuna III:

Either side. Honestly both.

Curtis, Brian:

Sure, sure. So on the military side, on the Marine Corps side, I would say one of the most memorable missions for me, both on the excitement level as well as the just the overall kind of ‘knowing that you were you were truly being part of history’, was when we were given orders to cross into Baghdad for the first time and our objective, if you will, was the Ministry of Internal Affairs building, which was basically in the center of north Baghdad. We were going to use that as a hub to branch out into the rest of North Baghdad if you will. So flying down the interstate, if you will, interstates but the main highway in Baghdad pushing toward that building was extremely memorable. Pretty good scrap there. Pretty good fight there. They had some good forces that were held up in that building and once it was done. My FST team consolidated in the very top of the building so we could see as much as we could because we were actually gonna be calling in fire from the top of that building that night. And my radio operator, a young guy that was with me all the way through - I had kept him as a radio operator because we worked extremely well together - he called me on the radio and said: 

‘Hey, the elevator still works. They have a generator, so take it all the way up to the top floor. Push the top button and I'll meet you up here.’ And we were typically used to digging into sand and spending several days dug into sand. And when I got off the elevator, he was sitting on a white leather couch with a full tiger skin on the couch with his radio set up on the balcony overlooking where we were going to look that night and he had a bottle of Scotch, highland scotch sitting there, and he just kind of smiled.

Augustine Acuna III:

Oh my Lord.

Curtis, Brian:

So the first night in Baghdad, we actually called in fire sitting on that couch, drinking scotch. So that was a good memory.

Samuel Lee:

What about the SWAT side, though? Any good stories you could talk about?

Curtis, Brian:

Haha.

Augustine Acuna III:

I don't know if we're gonna be able to top that.

Curtis, Brian:

No, no, no. Calling in fire on white couches. No, I would say on the SWAT side of the house, probably one of the more memorable ones was: we were doing a drug raid drug warrant and it turned out to be several large contingents of illegal aliens, migrants, whatever you want to call them, human trafficking victims. Inside of that house that was unknown to us. And there's a lot of mixed feelings there, in the sense of humanity on one side, but also anger on the other side. So that's something that we see more and more frequently now and we'll actually execute a lot of warrants strictly for human trafficking. So yeah, that's a fairly fairly memorable time.

Samuel Lee:

In your experience, do you think that, with both you being in the military and SWAT, what do you think is the most important thing that you have to remember? Like for you to remember when you're doing these jobs?

Curtis, Brian:

I would say definitely on the law enforcement side of the house, is you have to remember your primary mission is preservation of life, especially here in the United States, and especially when there isn't, say, a hostage situation where there's a clearly defined victim if you will, that's involved in it and you're strictly going after a bad guy. And you're going in with twenty plus people with, you know, AR fifteens night vision, armor, personnel carriers and you're basically going into combat. You still have to remember that the overall mission is preservation of life to include that individual. And that's something that you have to remember, because if you don't, that's when you start getting indicted and spending some of your years in a penitentiary. So that's something that just has to keep frequently being driven into everyone.

Declan Browne:

So, considering your experience in both the military and the police, how would you say shifting political climates impact your ability to do your job?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure. It absolutely impacts us on a daily basis, much more so than say fifteen-years-ago, ten-years-ago even. It does impact us on a daily basis - the political swing - locally, statewide nationwide, they blend together. Particularly for us, like I said, if not a daily on a weekly basis, our sheriff is extremely nationally active, politically, on the Democratic left side, so some of our policies and who we work with and that kind of thing are dictated absolutely by that. So for example: obviously the shift in the last four months, some agencies are working very closely with federal governments or excuse me, federal agencies on a daily basis. [But] we don't, we still work with federal agencies, but not when it comes to actual immigration issues. So it absolutely has an influence.

Augustine Acuna III:

I guess more specifically, how do you think the new administration's policy on drugs, so you know, curbing the flow of fentanyl and immigration, flow of immigrants, affects your line of work?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure. I think it's a little bit early to see exactly how it is going to impact us. I think shutting down the pipeline, if you will, the actual avenue, whether it's in human trafficking or having drugs get in - having that pipeline extremely affected in the last four months, particularly obviously since January. I think the cartels and those controlling that, are still kind of working through that right now. And we don't have a real firm grasp of data yet on how much that's impacting them monetarily. So my 100% hypothesis/theory is: I think they're going to try to find an alternate route, whether that be through the Caribbean, whether that be through Canada and see if that you know will at least somewhat get them back to close to where they were.

If not, they're probably gonna start pushing a little bit more aggressive tactics to open up, open back those pipelines. So that's gonna be that's gonna be very interesting to see how that looks and how we deal with that, so.

Samuel Lee:

I'm assuming you worked both under the Biden administration and Trump administrations. What would you say then is the most impactful way they've dealt with, you know, these problems in the border and has there been much change, I guess?

Curtis, Brian:

Sure. I would say absolutely just in the aspect of closing the border. Again this is just non-law enforcement wise, within twenty days of the border being shut, you could see an actual impact in traffic flow in San Antonio. So that obviously you know rolls over to the law enforcement side in the sense of the frequency - it is just usually the comfort level of criminals who may be here illegally because in the past, if obviously you were arrested. Even if you had some kind of federal detainer to deport you, it was very unlikely they were gonna do that. So that fear, if you will, that deterrent wasn't there for any of the criminals. That very much is so now - Their strategies and tactics for criminal activity have changed because of that. So again, that's kind of something we're working through and seeing right now. We're seeing a lot more evading cases in vehicles, say for example, where they know, hey, if I get put in handcuffs, there’s a good chance I'm gonna get deported. So I'm gonna go ahead and take a risk on picking up another charge. Take, for example, evading. So yeah, that's definitely impacting.

Declan Browne:

So based on all of your experiences, what would be the most important lesson or thing that you would want to impart on future generations?

Curtis, Brian:

Future generation, both law enforcement and military?

Declan Browne:

Sure, yeah.

Curtis, Brian:

Particularly in the military, and again I'm speaking for the Marine Corps side of the house. The success of the Marine Corps, the foundation of it is really the past - Truly understanding the history and what you represent, and not to ever, ever lose that so, always know your actions, whether that be in combat or daily life in the barracks, reflect on them. So always keep that history close to you. I know I'm preaching to the choir here about history, but not only learn it, but truly live it and respect it. So before your actions ask yourself: would Chesty Puller be proud of what I'm doing right now? And I think the Marine Corps and the military in general does a very good job of recognizing that - not to lose that foundation. On the law enforcement side. I would say, to be flexible in the sense of: there is constant change, much more so than any other generation/past generations. You'll go through an ebb and flow of change, whether it's laws, tactics, policies, much more so. So if you're not flexible in that, you're going to be extremely disgruntled very quickly, so remain flexible, especially in law enforcement and yeah, I think that would be my, my overall.

Augustine Acuna III:

And based off that and I guess this is the final question, would you recommend a career in the police force?

Curtis, Brian:

It's funny, you ask me that, because I've gone through some, you know, executive type training, that kind of thing. That question always comes up in discussion. And I went through one within the last four years, I think where that topic was discussed and my answer was unequivocally no. I would not recommend a career in law enforcement. But it really is - Sure, it has something to do with the pendulum swinging in some ways to a more friendly atmosphere. If you will for law enforcement, but not completely. So I would say now it would depend on the person. I would try to get to know whoever was asking me that question a little bit more to answer that completely. But depending on the person, I would say yes, I would recommend it depending on what their overall goals were in joining. So it has changed a little bit. Like I said, unequivocally, four years ago, I'd say absolutely not today, I would recommend it for some.

Augustine Acuna III:

Well, thank you very much. I think that concludes all of our questions. It's been a great pleasure to get to interview you. You've lived such a storied life. It's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for doing this.

Declan Browne:

Thanks a lot.

Curtis, Brian:

Well, thank you all. My pleasure. And like I said, thank you all for keeping the history alive, if you will. And anything I can do in the future at all. Please don't - Don't hesitate at all.